NASA/SpaceX Red Dragon mission

[Salo]

Серьёзное обсуждение и есть заявка на грядущий распил средств, не так ли?
Чтобы снять все вопросы достаточно зайти на сайт НАСА и задать поисковый запрос. Попробуй. :wink:

[Дмитрий Виницкий]

а зачем? И при чем тут вообще распил? Я не вижу сути разговора.

[Salo]

http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=26269.msg906662#msg906662

Has everyone has seen these 'Concepts and Approaches for Mars Exploration' abstracts describing Red Dragon variants?

http://www.lpi.usra.edu/meetings/marsconcepts2012/pdf/4176.pdf

http://www.lpi.usra.edu/meetings/marsconcepts2012/pdf/4216.pdf

Complete programme is here:

http://www.lpi.usra.edu/meetings/marsconcepts2012/pdf/program.pdf

[Дмитрий Виницкий]

Интересно, зачем там стерильная камера???

[S.Chaban]

достаточно много интересной и детальной информации о Красном Драконе...
http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=28668.msg915470#msg915470

- As currently planned Ice-Dragon would land a 1 mT payload at an altitude of -3 km (MOLA ref.), but "should be able to deliver quite more than that" (min 41:10). And it could also land that tonne as high as -1.3 km (min 49:15), and achieve a 10 km accuracy (using MSL guidance techniques).

- Supersonic retro propulsion is now just TRL 2 and is the main worry for the mission planning (min 50:40).

- The SuperDraco engines will start only 800 m from the surface, while the capsule is doing 2.24 km/s. Deceleration will reach 7 g.

- Dragon's propellant capacity "is modular and they have the capacity to put quite a bit of propellant in the vehicle ...". By now they are considering 1.9 mT and that's enough for the missions considered (01:28:10).

- The superDracos "have a very, very wide [throttling] range" (01:29:00) (according to the previous presentation at least 5%-100%).

[zeaman]

достаточно много интересной и детальной информации о Красном Драконе...
http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=28668.msg915470#msg915470

- As currently planned Ice-Dragon would land a 1 mT payload at an altitude of -3 km (MOLA ref.), but "should be able to deliver quite more than that" (min 41:10). And it could also land that tonne as high as -1.3 km (min 49:15), and achieve a 10 km accuracy (using MSL guidance techniques).

- Supersonic retro propulsion is now just TRL 2 and is the main worry for the mission planning (min 50:40).

- The SuperDraco engines will start only 800 m from the surface, while the capsule is doing 2.24 km/s. Deceleration will reach 7 g.

- Dragon's propellant capacity "is modular and they have the capacity to put quite a bit of propellant in the vehicle ...". By now they are considering 1.9 mT and that's enough for the missions considered (01:28:10).

- The superDracos "have a very, very wide [throttling] range" (01:29:00) (according to the previous presentation at least 5%-100%).

2.24 Maxa. 2.24km/s  на высоте 800 метров - это перебор.

[Valerij]

Project 'Red Dragon': Mars Sample-Return Mission Could Launch in 2022 with SpaceX Capsule

 By Leonard David, Space.com's Space Insider Columnist | March 07, 2014 03:40pm ET
 

 
SpaceX's Dragon capsule – now in use to resupply the International Space Station – could be modified to perform a Mars sample-return mission, researchers say.

Scientists have blueprinted a low-cost Mars sample-return mission that would use a souped-up Dragon capsule from the private spacefligth company SpaceX and the firm's planned Falcon Heavy rocket to get to the Red Planet by the early 2020s.
 
The new study demonstrates the viability of the entry, descent and landing of the unmanned Dragon space capsule at Mars. Moreover, the spacecraft's descent technique would help set the stage for future human missions to the Red Planet, researchers said.

 The idea is to leverage emerging commercial capabilities to achieve Mars sample-return (MSR) without breaking the bank, perhaps in 2022. Most scientists regard a sample-return trip as a "Holy Grail" mission — the best way to look for signs of past or present life on the Red Planet.
 
For the last few years, more than a dozen experts engaged in the appraisal, which was undertaken as an internal study at NASA's Ames Research Center in Moffett Field, Calif. They detailed the results at the Institute of Electrical and Electronics Engineers (IEEE) 2014 Aerospace Conference, held March 1-8 in Big Sky, Mont.
 

 
A Red Dragon study team blueprinted a Mars sample-return mission architecture based on the use of SpaceX's Dragon capsule and Falcon Heavy booster.
Credit: NASA Ames Research Center/Red Dragon Internal Study Team

Digging deep

 Scientists at NASA Ames have long been interested in drilling deeply into the subsurface environment of Mars, hoping to drill down 6.5 feet (2 meters) or more, said Lawrence Lemke, a senior engineer in the Mission Design Division at Ames.
 

   
This shows one prototype for hardware to cache samples of cores drilled from Martian rocks for possible future return to Earth. A major objective for NASA's Mars 2020 rover, as described by the Mars 2020 Science Definition Team, would be to collect and package a carefully sel ected set of up to 31 samples in a cache that could be returned to Earth by a later mission. For scale, the diameter of the core sample shown in the image is 0.4 inch (1 centimeter).

Спойлер

Such digging capability would enable investigation of the habitability of that zone for past or existing Mars life, Lemke said.

 "Big Mars landers would ease the problem of landing and operating deep robotic drills," he told Space.com.

 Lemke contributed to the sample-return study, specializing in entry, descent and landing of a Space Exploration Technologies (SpaceX) Dragon capsule on Mars.

 Dragon currently serves as a commercial cargo spacecraft, delivering supplies and scientific experiments to the International Space Station for NASA. Under a $1.6 billion deal with the space agency, Dragon will make 12 unmanned supply runs to the orbiting lab, two of which the company has already completed.

Modified Dragon capsule

 "Initially, we were skeptical," Lemke said. "The history of spaceflight is full of suggestions to utilize a spacecraft designed for operation in the near-Earth environment for operation in a deep-space environment. It usually turns out to be a terrible idea after you dig into the engineering details, because so many modifications are often required that it's better to just start with a clean-sheet design."

The study group spent a couple of years reviewing the engineering problem. They concluded that a minimally modified Dragon capsule — dubbed "Red Dragon" — could indeed successfully perform an all-propulsive entry, descent and landing on Mars "without violating the laws of physics," Lemke said.

 The Red Dragon capsule is customized to carry the gear needed to return samples gathered on Mars, including a Mars Ascent Vehicle (MAV); an Earth Return Vehicle (ERV); and hardware to transfer to the ERV a sample collected in a previously landed rover mission, such as NASA's planned Mars 2020 rover. [Images]

 At this time, NASA has made no firm plans to execute any type of sample-return mission. But agency officials want the Mars 2020 rover to collect and cache samples during its time on the Red Planet.

SuperDraco engines

 In the Red Dragon study, the spacecraft would make a direct entry into the atmosphere of Mars. It would descend to the Red Planet's surface without a parachute system, using retro propulsion for a precision touchdown. SuperDraco rocket engines would provide this retro propulsion. SpaceX is currently testing these powerful engines for its launch-abort system on the Dragon spacecraft.

 The study findings suggest that, at the upper limits of its capability, a Red Dragon could land roughly 2 metric tons of useful payload on Mars. That's two times more mass than any craft has ever landed on the Red Planet. (The current record was set when a rocket-powered "sky crane" lowered NASA's 1-ton Curiosity rover to the Martian surface in August 2012.)

 In another plus, Lemke added, the Red Dragon capsule has several times the volume of the Viking heritage entry vehicle from the 1970s.

 "This combination of features led us to speculate that it might be possible to land enough mass and volume with a Red Dragon to enable a Mars sample-return mission," Lemke said.

 In addition, the mission would not require the transfer of samples from one vehicle to another in Mars orbit before making the trek to Earth, he said.

 "This potentially lowers the risk and cost of a sample-return mission," Lemke said.
 
Chain of contact

 As currently envisioned, the sample-toting Red Dragon return vehicle would blast off the Martian surface (with the aid of the MAV) and head directly for Earth.

 A study scenario sees a later mission, using a Dragon and launched by a Falcon Heavy, performing a rendezvous with the return vehicle in high Earth orbit. The mission would then retrieve the sample container and break the chain of contact with Mars by transferring the sample into a sterile and secure container.

 "This work shows that emerging commercial capabilities can be effectively integrated into a mission to achieve an important planetary science objective," said Andrew Gonzales, a senior systems engineer in the NASA Ames Mission Design Division. He led the look into the overall Mars sample-return architecture.

 Other recent Mars sample-return ideas would employ three Red Planet missions, requiring a lot of flight hardware and numerous interfaces.

 "One of our top-level objectives was to critically examine options for a Mars sample-return with fewer elements," Gonzales told Space.com.
 
Traditional and new sources

 Gonzales said the Red Dragon study shows that a MSR mission in the preferred 2022 opportunity that retrieves previously collected samples — perhaps those gathered by NASA's Mars 2020 rover — is feasible. This is made possible by the use of emerging commercial technologies integrated with other types of techniques derived fr om traditional and new sources, he said.

 "The significance of the work is that it opens the door to the efficient achievement of an important planetary science objective at a lower complexity level and, by extension, at potentially lower cost than previously considered," Gonzales said.

 Both Lemke and Gonzales stressed that NASA Ames performed the Red Dragon work internally, using information in the public domain and without the assistance of any commercial organization.

 Additionally, NASA makes no endorsement of any particular commercial organization, and no particular organization endorses this work.

Leonard David has been reporting on the space industry for more than five decades. He is former director of research for the National Commission on Space and is co-author of Buzz Aldrin's new book "Mission to Mars – My Vision for Space Exploration" published by National Geographic.

[свернуть]

http://www.space.com/24984-spacex-mars-mission-red-dragon.html

[Valerij]

Прошу прощения, у меня заглючила сеть, и я писал предыдущее сообщение в несколько этапов.

[garg]

Есть новые данные? Особенно с техническими подробностями. особенно каким образом Маск собирается повысить ПН Ред Драгон с 1 до 4 тонн?

[Димитър]

Неделя назад еще раз подтвердили, что собираются лететь в 2022 году.

[garg]

Про то что собрались и так понятно, потому и нарыл тему. Вопрос в конкретных технических решениях.
Как собрались 4-х кратно повысить ПН лэндера, при том что Ракета улучшилась с первоначальной версии максимум на 40%.
Какой возвратный корабль.
Пн финальная если верить старым картинкам  - грунта максимум до 1 кг в 31 пробе (на глаз определял) - плюс контейнер еще 5-10 кг максимум.(в зависимости от степени защиты.
Не понятно почему отказываются от баллистического спуска.

Я тут на вскидку считал - при 2-3,5 тонне стартовой с Марса - на межпланетке выйдет 100-250 кг не считая последней ступени. Неужели этого мало для аккуратной посадки без лишних телодвижений с перехватом на высокоэлептической орбите? (Если верить картинке так и вовсе - 2-м драконом с FH + 200 млн с гаком. Нафига?)

[Дмитрий Виницкий]

SpaceX plans to debut Red Dragon with 2018 Mars missionApril 27, 2016 by Chris Bergin

SpaceX has entered into an agreement with NASA for a Dragon mission to Mars, set to take place as early as 2018. Known as "Red Dragon", the variant of the Dragon 2 spacecraft will be launched by the Falcon Heavy rocket, ahead of a soft landing on the surface of Mars. The spacecraft is set to carry a suite of scientific instrumentation as part of the NASA agreement.

https://www.nasaspaceflight.com/2016/04/spacex-debut-red-dragon-2018-mars-mission/

[testest2]

Уточнение: НАСА не финансирует этот проект.

[Валерий Жилинский]

Очень много информации по проекту в частности здесь:  http://www.parabolicarc.com/2016/04/27/spacex-working-nasa-sending-dragon-spacecraft-mars/

SpaceX is partnering with NASA under a Space Act Agreement (SAA) to work toward accelerating the knowledge and critical technology needed to support missions to Mars and ultimately enable humans to live on Mars. Technology development will be completed in two different areas.
Area 1: The first area will include the development of deep-space communication and navigation capabilities and Mars Entry, Descent and Landing ("EDL") at the scale of the Red Dragon lander concept, along with potential unmanned precursor mission activities. The potential for ride share opportunities, as part of these or other missions SpaceX is undertaking will also be evaluated.
Area 2: The second area will include methane-oxygen propulsion development, propellant management, large scale in situ resource utilization systems, and human-scale Mars EDL. This area may also inform sub-scale demonstrations that could be supported by efforts associated with the first area.

В частности, расписаны этапы проекта, но пропущен седьмой этап, по смыслу - возврат образцов на Землю, который НАСА может попытаться оформить отдельным проектом.
   

[Валерий Жилинский]

Информация по проекту в блоге НАСА:
http://blogs.nasa.gov/newman/2016/04/27/exploring-together/
 

Among the many exciting things we're doing with American businesses, we're particularly excited about an upcoming SpaceX project that would build upon a current "no-exchange-of-funds" agreement we have with the company. In exchange for Martian entry, descent, and landing data from SpaceX, NASA will offer technical support for the firm's plan to attempt to land an uncrewed Dragon 2 spacecraft on Mars.

Много общих слов, но и подтверждение словам SpaceX

[Not]

Валерий Жилинский пишет:
Информация по проекту в блоге НАСА:
 http://blogs.nasa.gov/newman/2016/04/27/exploring-together/
 

 In exchange for Martian entry, descent, and landing data from SpaceX, NASA will offer technical support for the firm's plan to attempt to land an uncrewed Dragon 2 spacecraft on Mars.

Это что же, государство бессовестно надувает Маска, предлагая ему бесплатные знания в обмен на реальные расходы?  

[silentpom]

вроде текст полностью наоборот - маск поделится с наса добытыми знаниями с наса в обмен на расходы наса

[Not]

А как же "no-exchange-of-funds" ?

[silentpom]

а это тут причем?

[Not]

silentpom пишет:
а это тут причем?

дык денег не дают.