Ariane Next / Ariane 7

Автор Salo, 08.02.2017 20:38:49

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Salo

http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=41330.msg1639451#msg1639451
Цитироватьcalapine пишет:

L'usine nouvelle has an interesting report about CNES plans for the post-Ariane 6 time. Codewort "Ariane Next"

Vous avez aimé Ariane 6, vous allez adorer Ariane Next

It's all in french, so here is short a summary:

•   A launcher for "beyond 2030".
•   At the moment a team of 15 is working on the concept.
•   Further cost reduction by a factor of 2, compared to Ariane 6.
•   Tailored to both Commercial and State customers.
•   Development time reduced from 10 to 5 years.
•   Adaptable industrial base:
  o   Ability to increase production if demand requires it...
  o   But able to scale down and stay profitable if the commercial market shrinks.
•   The designated engine is Prométhéus
  o   10x cheaper to manufacture (compared to Vulcan 2)
  o   50% production time
  o   Extensive use of additive manfivuating aka 3D-printing
  o   Methane instead of LH2 propellant, easier to handle, yet similarities should speed up development.
  o   One possible scenario is to use Prométhéus for both 1st and 2nd stage.
•   Callisto will be the prototype for reusability
  o   Re-ignition at high altitude studied by Onera
•   Possibility of 2nd stage reuse is being considered.
•   Upper Stage could remain in orbit and conduct several GTO missions

For more in-depth Google Translate does a decent job.

Calapine
"Были когда-то и мы рысаками!!!"

triage

Цитироватьus2-star пишет:
"Ракеты завтрашнего дня CNES" (Ariane 6, Callisto, Ariane Next)
 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=atMrN6Iufsk
 Le CNES invente les lanceurs de demain

triage

#2
В споллере не по теме Ariane Next, только по Prometheus и Callisto
Спойлер
Цитироватьhttps://www.reddit.com/r/Arianespace/comments/6bp0sj/what_publicly_available_information_is_there/

Prometheus is the planned engine for Next. Its a reusable ~1MN methalox gas generator engine, 7 of them will be used on the first stage. The first stage will propulsively land like F9 and NG. The upper stage will not be reused, but they're looking at doing something like ACES with it (long duration cryogenic storage, fuel transfer, distributed launch), it will be powered by Vinci.
Callisto is the demonstrator for Nexts vertical landing system, it does not use Prometheus, will probably be using LE-8 (Japanese engine)

Цитироватьhttps://twitter.com/Stephane_Querry/status/781108002040451073
Le #CNES travaille sur les #lanceurs #réutilisables... (Démonstrateur Callisto) pour la succession d'#Ariane6
28 сент. 2016 г.
Язык твита: французский


[свернуть]

Василий Ратников

где то я эти картинки уже видел.

triage

#4
удалено, не по теме


Искандер

#6
ЦитироватьApollo13 пишет:
Evaluation of Future Ariane Reusable VTOL Booster stages

 http://elib.dlr.de/114430/2/PresentationIAC-17%20-%20D2.4.3_f.pdf
Смысл был с пропаном сравнивать если он "коптит"?
Почему то не оценивали цену топлива... Получается что водород лучше всего - даёшь типа европейскую Дельту! 
Почему рассматривали только GG двигатели? Европа на большее не способна? 

Какой-то неполный эвалюэшин.

И даже не пытались приблизительно оценить операционные расходы.
Aures habent et non audient, oculos habent et non videbunt

silentpom

ну дык, у европейцев только ГГ двигатели :) ну вроде как будет 1 экспандер

Apollo13

http://elib.dlr.de/114960/1/IAC17-D2.4.4.pdf

https://www.reddit.com/r/spacex/comments/7hx6bh/german_aerospace_center_study_systematic/

ЦитироватьSystematic Assessment of Reusable First-Stage Return Options 
Martin Sippel, Sven Stappert, Leonid Bussler, Etienne Dumont 
Martin.Sippel@dlr.de Tel. +49-421-244201145 
Space Launcher Systems Analysis (SART), DLR, Bremen, Germany

Salo

http://spacenews.com/france-germany-studying-reusability-with-a-subscale-flyback-booster/
ЦитироватьFrance, Germany studying reusability with a subscale flyback booster
by Caleb Henry — January 8, 2018

"We are lacking an experience by operation of recovering a vehicle and reflying it. This is exactly what we would like to do with Callisto," — Jean-Marc Astorg, head of Launch Vehicles Directorate, CNES. Credit: CNES
 
WASHINGTON — Reusable rocketry in Europe took a step forward last year with a funding boost for Prometheus, a program meant to develop a reusable engine manufacturable at one-tenth the cost of the Ariane 5's first-stage liquid engine. A parallel effort dubbed Callisto could test a European ability to launch, return and refly a rocket from the Guiana Space Centre in South America.
The French and German space agencies (CNES and DLR, respectively) have for the past two years collaborated on a scaled-down rocket that would allow Europe to practice different aspects of recovery and reuse. Callisto's first flight is planned for 2020.
Callisto officials said the goal of the program is not to create a new vehicle in 2020 — the Ariane 6 is scheduled to debut that same year — but to establish a base of knowledge for future launch vehicles that could, maybe, be reusable.
"Prometheus and Callisto are two key elements of our future launcher preparatory roadmap," Jean-Marc Astorg, head of CNES's Launch Vehicles Directorate, told SpaceNews. "Prometheus is a new engine to equip Ariane 6 evolutions or brand-new launchers, and Callisto is developed to learn about reusability in Europe, which we have not done before. We are lacking an experience by operation of recovering a vehicle and reflying it. This is exactly what we would like to do with Callisto."
Around 1 to 2 percent of Ariane 6's 3.6-billion-euro ($4.3 billion) development budget is spent on Callisto, Astorg said, describing it as a "modest approach." Callisto is still in a preliminary design phase, he said, with a full decision on the realization of the demonstrator anticipated this June.
"What we do on Callisto will be very useful to check if reusability is interesting from a cost point of view," Astorg said. "That will feed our work in the coming years."
France is leading Callisto's guidance system and flight software development, Astorg said, and providing the launch site. The Guiana Space Centre won't need major investments because of the small size of Callisto, he said.
Hansjörg Dittus, executive board
 member for space research and technology at DLR, told SpaceNews that his agency will bring trajectory, aerodynamic and aerothermodynamic expertise to Callisto, as well as assistance on some subsystem aspects.
Development of a liquid-hydrogen tank would likely be developed in cooperation between the two countries, Astorg said, with industry supplying the engine — which has not been decided — and the liquid-oxygen tank, he said. Callisto's current configuration calls for a hydrogen engine, Dittus said.

The SpaceX effect
 
The idea for Callisto did come in part as a response to SpaceX, which has now landed 20 boosters and flown five customers on used rockets, but both Astorg and Dittus describe the project as very different.
"It's not a copy of what SpaceX is doing," Dittus said. "In some aspects we are also skeptical [about reusability as] the right path, but we will see what is best and then we can come up with ideas of how we proceed."
Dittus said Callisto would help understand key technologies that would then influence future studies and investments beyond 2020. Questions, he said, include:
 
    [/li]
  • To what extent do the stages have to be winged?
  • What is the throtability of engines?
  • What kind of engines would be the best to use for reusability?
"That's why we do this now," he said.
Asked whether it was a concern that SpaceX will be much further ahead by the time Callisto flies, Astorg said not being first brings some advantages, such avoiding the use of kerosene in favor of more reusable-friendly fuels like hydrogen or methane. SpaceX's Falcon 9 Merlin engines use liquid oxygen and kerosene. The U.S. company is investing in a methane and liquid-oxygen engine called Raptor for the Big Falcon Rocket, the successor to the Falcon 9 and Falcon Heavy. 
"To be the first to test a technology is very good to be in the media, but it is not always good to be the first in business," he said. "Today we operate Ariane 5 with 82 successes in a row. We are now close to the first flight of Ariane 6 in 2020. These are our main workhorses to service our needs and for the launch commercial market. For the future we will need to learn from our own experience, we will need to check what others are doing to find the right vehicle for the future."
"With Ariane 6, industry will reduce the launch cost by two with a new organization and also using technologies tested on CNES demonstrators 10 years ago," he added. "We are working now on the technologies that will again reduce the launch cost by two in 10 years from now."

Callisto + Prometheus?
 
Callisto's size as compared to today's European launcher family, Vega, Soyuz and Ariane 5. Credit: CNES

Prometheus was originally a CNES project with industry partner ArianeGroup, but last year evolved into a European Space Agency program with substantially more funding (ESA signed a 75 million euro contract with ArianeGroup in December for the first two prototypes). Callisto, in contrast, is not an ESA program, and its progress is somewhat separate from Prometheus. Astorg said Callisto will need to launch with a different engine because it will be too small for Prometheus, and also because Prometheus will not be ready to fly on Callisto in 2020.
The first vision of Callisto is projected at 13.5 meters high and one meter in diameter, Astorg said. As the project matures, larger versions would fly that could then potentially use Prometheus, he said.
Dittus said if Callisto were to use Prometheus, it would likely be as an ESA project.
"Были когда-то и мы рысаками!!!"

azvoz

РН Ariane Next.
ЕКА Ариан планируют перейти от сложной и дорогой схемы с тремя  типами двигателей , водородом ,ТТУ, и большого количества элементов конструкции
к простой и менее дорогой схеме с одним типом двигателя и кардинальным уменьшением количества элементов конструкции.
Будет использоватьяся ненапряжённый  ЖРД на метане открытого цикла с широким диапазоном дросселирования. 
Тяга 100 тс. 
УИ   360с - на верхней ступени 
        320с - на нижней ступени
 

azvoz

Цитироватьazvoz написал:
Будет использоватьяся ненапряжённый  ЖРД на метане открытого цикла с широким диапазоном дросселирования. Тяга 100 тс. УИ   360с - на верхней ступени         320с - на нижней ступени

Salo

Если Вам в лом ссылаться на мои сообщения, то хотя бы первоисточник приведите!
"Были когда-то и мы рысаками!!!"

Salo

"Были когда-то и мы рысаками!!!"

Salo

"Были когда-то и мы рысаками!!!"

Сергей

Бедные итальянцы, им на карман собираются наступить. Ариан без ТТУ, так и Вегу могут сделать метановой. Жуть! :evil: 

vlad7308

Инженер-недоучка, наркоман и фигляр Маск таки научил всех, как делать правильные ракеты. Моноблок с одним типом двигателей на обеих ступенях, один на второй, 7-9 на первой. Вертикальная посадка 1ст. Ну и тд.
это оценочное суждение