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CCiCap - Commercial Crew Integrated Capability
 
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Jeff Foust ‏@jeff_foust 3 ч.3 часа назад
Williams: schedules for comm’l crew “remain optimistic”: currently calls for certification for SpaceX Feb 18, Boeing May 18.
"Были когда-то и мы рысаками!!!"
 
Цитата
Salo пишет:
А как же хвалёная восьмикратная эффективность?
Восьмикратная эффективность - это проектов с фиксированными ценами по отношению к проектам на принципах "затраты плюс прибыль". А программа CctCap, по настоянию Конгресса, финансируется, как раз, на принципах "затраты плюс прибыль". В Конгрессе это мотивировали тем, что иначе велики риски срыва сроков из-за нарушения графика финансирования. Но потом Конгресс сам срывал сроки финансирования.

Цитата
Salo пишет:
Кстати, по финансированию вижу только полуторакратный разрыв с Боингом. Максимум двукратный.
А в данной программе и SpaceX, и Боинг выступают в категории "новые частники", и оба финансируются по принципу "затраты плюс прибыль".
 
Кроме того проект "Дракона" изменялся, из-за того, что первоначально предусматривалась реактивная посадка на сушу как основной вариант, парашютная посадка в океан как резервный. Сейчас НАСА решило сделать наоборот. НАСА признает, что переработка проекта и дополнительные испытания заняли у SpaceX около года.
 
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Валерий Жилинский пишет:
Восьмикратная эффективность - это проектов с фиксированными ценами по отношению к проектам на принципах "затраты плюс прибыль". А программа CctCap, по настоянию Конгресса, финансируется, как раз, на принципах "затраты плюс прибыль".
Если кто не в курсе, то дело было так:
Маск сказал - дайте мне фиксированную цену в 8 раз меньше чем Грандам и я все сделаю в срок.
Но не тут то было ...
Конгресс США приполз к Маску на коленях, просил, умолял, требовал и наконец НАСТОЯЛ чтобы Маск взял в 8 раз больше денег и сделал бы тоже самое в срок.
Как ни странно, Маск согласился
Главное не наличие проблем, главное способность их решать.
У каждой ошибки есть Имя и Фамилия
 
Цитата
Jeff Foust ‏@jeff_foust  27 мин.27 минут назад
Lueders notes that the dates for the SpaceX missions have not been updated since the last quarterly meeting in July (pre F9 accident).

Jeff Foust ‏@jeff_foust  39 мин.39 минут назад  
Schedules for Boeing and SpaceX’s commercial crew efforts, from Kathy Lueders’ presentation at NAC HEO committee meeting:
"Были когда-то и мы рысаками!!!"
 
Цитата
Parabolicarc.com ‏@spacecom  2 ч.2 часа назад   California, USA  
Bolden: commercial crew flight tests scheduled for "as early as" end of 2017 Not sure about that. Boeing definitely not. SpaceX probably not
"Были когда-то и мы рысаками!!!"
 
"Были когда-то и мы рысаками!!!"
 
https://www.nasa.gov/specials/CCP2016/
"Были когда-то и мы рысаками!!!"
 
Цитата
Chris B - NSF ‏@NASASpaceflight  3 ч.3 часа назад  
Chris B - NSF Ретвитнул(а) NASA Commercial Crew
It's all going on right now. Good news for Starliner and Dragon 2:
Chris B - NSF добавил(а),
Цитата
https://twitter.com/Commercial_Crew/status/816396824491790337  
 
NASA Commercial Crew  @Commercial_Crew  
Regular crew rotation flights with @BoeingDefense and @SpaceX to and from the @Space_Station are secured to 2024. http://go.nasa.gov/2iACB7k  
"Были когда-то и мы рысаками!!!"
 
По ссылке выше (просто в теме выше еще старые сроки для SpaceX (сообщили о переносе 12-13 декабря))
Цитата
https://www.nasa.gov/feature/mission-awards-secure-commercial-crew-transportation-for-coming-years
Jan. 4, 2017
Mission Awards Secure Commercial Crew Transportation for Coming Years
NASA took another big step to ensure reliable crew transportation to the International Space Station into the next decade. The agency’s Commercial Crew Program has awarded an additional four crew rotation missions each to commercial partners, Boeing and SpaceX, to carry astronauts to and from the International Space Station.

The four additional missions will fly following NASA certification. They fall under the current Commercial Crew Transportation Capability contracts, and bring the total number of missions awarded to each provider to six.

The additional flights will allow the commercial partners to plan for all aspects of these missions while fulfilling space station transportation needs. The awards do not include payments at this time.
...
The commercial crew vehicles will transport up to four astronauts for NASA missions, along with about 220 pounds of critical cargo to the space station.
...
Boeing’s uncrewed flight test, known as an Orbital Flight Test, is currently scheduled for June 2018 and its crewed flight test currently is planned for August 2018. SpaceX’s uncrewed flight test, or Demonstration Mission 1, is currently scheduled for November 2017, followed by its first crew flight test in May 2018.  Once the flight tests are complete and NASA certifies the providers for flight, the post-certification missions to the space station can begin.
...
Изменено: pnetmon - 08.01.2017 12:25:15
 
непонятно в какую тему, хоть новую заводи именно по покупке мест на Союзах

Оригиналы... Боинг наверное так отобъет деньги с Морского старта (лучше обсуждать в соответствующей теме). Ну и российкое сокращение упоминают

Цитата
http://spaceref.com/news/viewsr.html?pid=49783
...
NASA Solicitation: Procurement of Crew Transportation and Rescue Services From Boeing
GENERAL INFORMATION
Notice Type: Presolicitation
Posted Date: January 17, 2017
Response Date: Jan 27, 2017 4:30 pm Central
....
NASA is considering contracting with The Boeing Company (Boeing) for crew transportation services to and from the International Space Station (ISS) on the Russian Soyuz vehicle. This transportation would be for one crewmember in the Fall of 2017 and one crewmember in the Spring of 2018. NASA is considering purchasing these services from Boeing, without competition, because no other vehicles are currently capable of providing these services in Fall 2017 or Spring 2018. NASA has contracts with two U.S. commercial companies for crew transportation to the ISS. However, these vehicles are still in the developmental stage, and not expected to begin fully operational flights to the ISS until 2019. NASA also is considering an option to acquire crew transportation from Boeing for three crewmembers on the Soyuz in 2019, to ensure the availability of back-up transportation capability in the event the U.S. commercial contractor vehicles are delayed or to augment future ISS operations and research.

NASA is issuing this synopsis in order to provide notice of the Agency's requirements and to determine whether any other potential sources have the current capability to provide these crew transportation services in the needed timeframes. Interested organizations may submit their capabilities and qualifications to provide the crew transportation services described below. Such capabilities/qualifications will be evaluated solely for the purpose of determining whether or not to conduct this procurement on a competitive basis. The determination of whether or not to acquire these services without competition is solely within the discretion of the Government.

Submissions must be provided in writing to the identified point of contact not later than 4:30 p.m. local time on January 27, 2017. Oral communications are not acceptable in response to this notice. The Government intends to acquire the described services as a commercial item using FAR Part 12.

Скрытый текст

Background

The purchase of these services in 2017 and 2018 will increase US crew size on the ISS from three to four crew members to maximize ISS science utilization. Maximizing science utilization of the ISS is a program priority as required by the NASA Authorization Act of 2010 and the Commercial Space Launch Competitiveness Act (CSLCA) of 2015. Given the statutory requirements contained in the 2010 Authorization Act and the 2015 CSLCA, NASA constantly seeks opportunities to maximize scientific utilization of the ISS to achieve the largest possible return on the investment made by the United States and its international partners in the development, assembly, and operations of this unique laboratory.

NASA also has a need for the option to procure crew transportation services in the spring of 2019 time frame to provide either a primary or a backup crew transportation capability. An option ordering period ending in the fall of 2017 will allow NASA to evaluate performance of U.S. crew transportation services providers currently on contract and determine if back up capability is needed or if more crew time may be necessary to maximize research onboard the ISS and the U.S. National Laboratory in 2019. Crew transportation services are currently provided via a contract with the Russian State Space Corporation "Roscosmos" through 2018. NASA has contracts with two U.S. commercial providers developing new crew transportation systems, which are anticipated to provide domestic crew rotation transportation service to and from the ISS beginning in 2019. In the event the U.S. commercial crew providers are delayed in demonstrating a fully operational capability to transport humans to space, the risk of de-crewing ISS greatly increases. The absence of US crew members at any point would diminish vehicle operations to an inoperable state. As a means to mitigate that risk and to ensure that proper launch cadence is maintained for future launches to the ISS, NASA intends to include a contract option from Boeing for its Soyuz seats in CY 2019 that will provide NASA with a capability to ensure uninterrupted access to the ISS while U.S. commercial providers establish that their vehicles have full operational capability, or provide for more crew time to maximize research onboard the ISS and the U.S. National Laboratory in 2019.

The Russian Soyuz is currently the only vehicle with the operational capability to provide crew services to and from the ISS in 2017 and 2018. There are eight Soyuz launches planned between CYs 2017 and 2018 (four per year). The crew capacity of the Soyuz is limited to a maximum of three crew members per vehicle. Because of this limitation, the current launch cadence utilized by NASA to transport crew to the ISS and maintain the current crew complement employs Soyuz launches that alternate between two types of crew configurations. The first Soyuz configuration ("Line A" ) includes a single US crew member and two Russian crew members that are transported to the ISS. The second Soyuz configuration ("Line B" ), usually timed to launch within a couple months of Line A, includes two US crew members and a single Russian crew member. This cadence maintains a typical crew complement of three US crew members aboard the ISS.

Russia recently announced its plans to decrement the Russian crew count onboard ISS from three to two, beginning in CY 2017. As a result of Russia reducing its crew count by one crewmember, there is now an available Soyuz seat in the 2017-2018 timeframe on each of the two planned spacecraft that would have otherwise had two Russian crew aboard. Of the 24 total Soyuz seats available in 2017-2018, the three seats resulting from the Russian crew decrement are the only available means of transporting additional US crewmembers to ISS during this period.

An agreement was recently reached between the Boeing Company and S.P. Korolev Rocket and Space Public Corporation, Energia ("RSC Energia" ), who is the manufacturer of the Soyuz spacecraft and has the legal rights to sell the seats and associated services. As a part of this agreement, Energia agreed to provide to Boeing two specifically identified seats on the Soyuz spacecraft for long-duration travel to and from the ISS, one on a flight to occur in the Fall 2017 timeframe and another on a flight to occur in the Spring 2018 timeframe. Additionally, Energia provided Boeing three additional specifically identified seats in the Spring 2019 timeframe on two Soyuz spacecraft. Finally, Boeing and RSC Energia agreed that each of these five seats will include a launch of an individual to and from the ISS, including all services normally provided during launches to ISS. Boeing and RSC Energia have represented that Boeing has the full rights to these seats and can sell them to any third party.

Since both U.S. commercial contractors' vehicles are still in the developmental stage, and not expected to begin fully operational flights to the ISS until 2019, the Russian Soyuz is currently the only vehicle capable of meeting the Government's needs in the required timeframes. As stated above, Boeing has obtained the exclusive ownership rights to these particular Soyuz seats and ancillary services during the stated time periods. The option for these Soyuz services in the Spring of 2019 time frame may be utilized as a primary or backup transportation capability to ensure proper launch cadence with no gaps in crew rotation transportation, or to augment future ISS operations and research. However, after U.S. commercial entities are fully operational and able to fulfill crew transportation requirements, the U.S. commercial vehicles will be NASA's primary transportation source to ISS.


Эрик уже статью выложил http://arstechnica.com/science/2017/01/nasa-formally-seeks-option-to-buy-additional-soyuz-seats-for-2019/
Изменено: pnetmon - 17.01.2017 22:06:56
 
https://arstechnica.com/science/2017/01/sources-neither-boeing-nor-spacex-likely-ready-to-fly-crews-until-2019/
Цитата
More Soyuz, please —
Technical troubles likely to delay commercial crew flights until 2019 Shiny new flight suits not withstanding, 2018 launch dates seem optimistic.
Eric Berger - 1/27/2017, 4:41 PM

Enlarge / SpaceX revealed its Dragon V2 spacecraft in May, 2014. It's still a ways from the launch pad.
SpaceX

This week Boeing made a public splash by debuting a new blue spacesuit for astronauts to wear aboard its Starliner spacecraft. What the company did not dwell on as it rolled out “Boeing Blue,” however, was when the lighter, more modern-looking flight suits might be put into action with crewed flights into orbit.
That is because much work remains to integrate all of Starliner’s various systems, including qualifying them for flight, ensuring their compatibility, and writing and testing software that will make for smooth flying. And Boeing is not alone; its “commercial crew” competitor SpaceX also faces similar technical hurdles with the Dragon V2 spacecraft and the Falcon 9 rocket that will launch it into space.
Boeing has set a “no earlier than” date of August 2018 for its first crewed test flight, and SpaceX has targeted May 2018. But those dates seem optimistic. Ars spoke to a handful of sources familiar with the commercial crew program this week, and all expressed pessimism about the public timelines the companies have for reaching the launch pad. According to this unofficial analysis, even a single crewed test flight in 2018 by either company now appears unlikely, as teams from both Boeing and SpaceX continue to work through significant technical issues.

Space really is hard

There is an old cliché in the aerospace industry that is nonetheless entirely true—space is hard. Only Russia, the United States, and more recently China have ever launched humans into orbit. Now two private companies, funded by NASA, are seeking to do the same. That no one else has yet done this speaks to the challenge.
In the early part of this decade, a skeptical Congress hindered the commercial crew program by under-funding it, which caused initial delays from 2015 to 2017. Last year, for the first time, Congress more or less provided every penny NASA requested for its contracts with Boeing and SpaceX. In September, NASA Inspector General Paul Martin reported that delays beyond 2017 were largely due to technical issues. NASA, too, bore some of the blame for its lumbering evaluation and review processes as Boeing and SpaceX developed their spacecraft, Martin said.
NASA, of course, desperately wants the private companies to succeed. Since the Space Shuttle’s retirement in 2011, the space agency has relied on Russia and its aging Soyuz family of rockets and spacecraft to transport its astronauts to the International Space Station. And in the meantime, Congress has groused about paying an increasingly steep price for Soyuz “seats.”
NASA currently has contracts with Russia through 2018 to get its astronauts to the station. However, a delay of test flights into 2019 would necessarily push the first “operational” commercial crew flights into spring or summer of 2019 at a minimum. So, earlier this month, NASA revealed a clever plan that would allow it to procure additional Soyuz seats for 2019 while also reducing the threat of political blowback.
Officials within the ISS program, based in Houston, helped broker a deal for Boeing to acquire the “rights” to sell three Soyuz seats in 2019. Boeing received these rights from Russia's Energia as compensation for the settlement of a lawsuit involving the Sea Launch joint venture. In essence, then, when NASA tells the White House and Congress it needs to buy additional seats for 2019 due to commercial crew delays, it will be asking for money to buy them from Boeing—an American company—rather than Russia.

Crew assignments

NASA has therefore bought some more time for its commercial crew partners. As we get deeper into 2017, there are some clues that can help us track whether Boeing and SpaceX are making good progress. Foremost is the actual assignment of crews to the first missions.
The space agency has previously designated four veterans as its commercial crew astronauts—Bob Behnken, Sunita Williams, Doug Hurley, and Eric Boe—who have since been familiarizing themselves with both new vehicles. These four astronauts are unlikely to be assigned to Boeing or SpaceX until such time that crews are formally announced, not only for the initial two-person test flights, but also for the subsequent operational flights. So there would potentially be two two-person crews named (one for each Boeing and SpaceX), as well as two larger crews, which would include astronauts flying to the station for a regular, multi-month increment.
The timing of these announcements is critical, as they would have to occur at least 18 months before the operational flights begin. This would allow the astronauts flying to the station for long-duration missions time to prepare for all their work aboard the ISS. Ars understands the naming of these crews won’t occur before at least June or July of this year—probably later.

Rocket concerns

Both companies are having trouble with not only their spacecraft, but their rockets as well. The Starliner will launch on the highly reliable Atlas V rocket, but wind-tunnel tests have shown some problems with aeroacoustic issues when the Starliner is stacked atop the Atlas V during launch. Boeing may need to perform additional tests this year to demonstrate that it has moved beyond these issues.
For SpaceX, it will be critical to watch the company’s development of its Falcon 9 rocket. With two failures in 18 months, the company needs to prove to NASA that its booster is safe. The issue is complicated by the fact that SpaceX continues to work toward a “final” version of its Falcon 9 rocket—Block 5—which founder and Chief Executive Elon Musk said will fly by the end of this year. The Block 5 variant of the Falcon 9 is being designed for optimal safety and easier return for potential reuse. It will also be the variant upon which the crewed Dragon spacecraft ultimately flies.
NASA will want to see multiple flights of this Block 5 version before it allows astronauts on top of it. Among those flights will be an uncrewed test flight of the Dragon V2 spacecraft, which will likely dock with the space station. As part of its milestones for Dragon V2, SpaceX nominally plans to conduct this uncrewed test flight in late 2017.
However, because it now seems unlikely that the Block 5 version of the Falcon 9 will make its maiden flight before late this year, the Dragon V2 test flight will almost certainly slip into 2018. How much it is delayed into 2018 should provide some clues as to how overly optimistic the rest of SpaceX’s commercial crew targets remain.

Promoted Comments
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Statistical Ars Praefectus et Subscriptor
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Space is hard. Cliche but true. Delays are all but inevitable. They were inevitable in Apollo and they are inevitable now. That Congress created necessary political delays on top of the real technical delays you know were coming is just stupid. Still even if they don't fly crews until 2019, the Commercial Orbital Transportation Services program, which includes both Commercial Crew and Commercial Resupply, will be an amazing success.
The development portion of COTS funding was $800M for resupply and $3.3B for crew (~$1.5B in development and $1.8B for certification flights). That includes funding for the spacecraft not selected as well. So for roughly $4B NASA got (or will get) three independent resupply vehicles and two independent crew transfer vehicles. That is just insanely low when you consider historically how much it has cost to develop a single new spacecraft. Plus those vehicles use a variety of launchers which means the entire fleet should never be grounded due to a fault in one launcher.
The services portion of COTS is up to $3.5B for resupply for up to 20 supply runs to the ISS and up to $5.0B for crew to provide up to twelve round trip crew flights (at least 4 astronauts per flight). The services portion is paid on a per mission basis so the numbers represent the max awards if NASA opts to use the maximum number of launches allowed by the contract. Most of this hasn't been paid yet.
9930 posts | registered 9/27/2010
"Были когда-то и мы рысаками!!!"
 
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https://www.wsj.com/articles/congressional-investigators-warn-of-spacex-rocket-defects-1486067874
Congressional Investigators Warn of SpaceX Rocket Defects

Government Accountability Office’s preliminary findings show persistent cracking of vital propulsion-system components
...
The Government Accountability Office’s preliminary findings reveal a pattern of problems with turbine blades that pump fuel into rocket engines, these officials said. The final GAO report, scheduled to be released in coming weeks, is slated to be the first public identification of one of the most serious defects affecting Falcon 9 rockets.
..
The final GAO report also will to delve into unrelated issues that threaten to delay initial launches of manned capsules by SpaceX and rival Boeing Co. Echoing conclusions of other studies by outside experts, GAO investigators have determined that both companies are likely to miss a 2018 deadline to start regular missions ferrying astronauts to the international space station.
According to industry officials familiar with the draft report, the GAO also pinpointed frequent modifications of Falcon 9 designs as a potential source of delays in obtaining NASA certification of the booster.
For Boeing, these officials said, GAO investigators—among other items—raised questions about the status of tests to determine the reliability of its parachute systems designed to help returning manned capsules land safely.
....
Через поиск названия статьи "можно" ее прочитать
На ее основе http://www.geekwire.com/2017/gao-journal-spacex-rocket-turbopump-cracking/
 
Бергер уже пишет
Цитата
https://arstechnica.com/science/2017/02/report-congressional-analysts-worry-spacex-engines-are-prone-to-cracks/
ERIC BERGER - 2/3/2017, 3:30 AM
...
Boeing has set a “no earlier than” date of August 2018 for its first crewed test flight as part of the commercial crew program, and SpaceX has targeted May 2018. The new GAO report is consistent with schedule concerns raised previously about the viability of those dates. According to an unofficial Ars analysis published in late January, even a single crewed test flight in 2018 by either company appears unlikely. Operational flights appear unlikely before mid-2019.
Изменено: pnetmon - 05.02.2017 14:08:56
 
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Marcia Smith ‏@SpcPlcyOnline 9 мин.9 минут назад
GAO says NASA needs to develop a backup plan in case of further delays in c crew. NASA agrees. http://gao.gov/assets/690/682859.pdf …
Цитата
February 2017
NASA COMMERCIAL CREW PROGRAM
Schedule Pressure Increases as Contractors Delay Key Events


What GAO Found

Both of the Commercial Crew Program’s contractors have made progress developing their crew transportation systems, but both also have aggressive development schedules that are increasingly under pressure.
The two contractors — Boeing and Space Exploration Technologies, Corp. (SpaceX) — are developing transportation systems that must meet the National Aeronautics and Space Administration’s (NASA) standards for human spaceflight — a process called certification. Both Boeing and SpaceX have determined that they will not be able to meet their original 2017 certification dates and both expect certification to be delayed until 2018, as shown in the figure below.
The schedule pressures are amplified by NASA’s need to provide a viable crew transportation option to the International Space Station (ISS) before its current contract with Russia’s space agency runs out in 2019. If NASA needs to purchase additional seats from Russia, the contracting process typically takes 3 years.
Without a viable contingency option for ensuring uninterrupted access to the ISS in the event of further Commercial Crew delays, NASA risks not being able to maximize the return on its multibillion dollar investment in the space station.

Both contractors are also dealing with a variety of risks that could further delay certification, including program concerns about the adequacy of information on certain key systems to support certification. Another top program risk is the ability of NASA and its contractors to meet crew safety requirements.

The Commercial Crew Program is using mechanisms laid out in its contracts to gain a high level of visibility into the contractors’ crew transportation systems. The program is using a different model than every other spacecraft NASA has built for humans. For example, NASA personnel are less involved in the testing, launching, and operation of the crew transportation system. The program has developed productive working relationships with both contractors, but the level of visibility that the program has required thus far has also taken more time than the program or contractors anticipated. Ultimately, the program has the responsibility for ensuring the safety of U.S. astronauts and its contracts give it deference to determine the level of visibility required to do so. Moving forward though, the program office could face difficult choices about how to maintain the level of visibility it feels it needs without adding to the program’s schedule pressures.
Изменено: Salo - 16.02.2017 23:12:02
"Были когда-то и мы рысаками!!!"
 
Ну что, график НАСА по SpaceX потихоньку "удивительным образом" начинает сходится с моим графиком   ;)  

http://gao.gov/assets/690/682859.pdf


http://novosti-kosmonavtiki.ru/forum/messages/forum10/topic14210/message1574804/#message1574804

Изменено: LRV_75 - 17.02.2017 01:35:09
Главное не наличие проблем, главное способность их решать.
У каждой ошибки есть Имя и Фамилия
 
Цитата
LRV_75 пишет:
Ну что, график НАСА по SpaceX потихоньку "удивительным образом" начинает сходится с моим графиком  ;)
Опять врешь, убогий? Ты трындел про 2019й год...
И мы пошли за так, на четвертак, за ради бога
В обход и напролом и просто пылью по лучу...
 
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Alex_II пишет:
Цитата
LRV_75 пишет:
Ну что, график НАСА по SpaceX потихоньку "удивительным образом" начинает сходится с моим графиком  ;)  
Опять врешь, убогий? Ты трындел про 2019й год...
Алекс_2 окончательно разучился читать и видеть?
У меня в таблице и есть 2019 год? И сейчас и 4 месяца назад  ;)
Главное не наличие проблем, главное способность их решать.
У каждой ошибки есть Имя и Фамилия
 
Ну и вспомним нашего Валерия (кстати, где он?)   :D  

15.10.2016 11:52:03

Цитата

Валерий Жилинский пишет:
Цитата
LRV_75 пишет:
https://oig.nasa.gov/audits/reports/FY16/IG-16-028.pdf

Статус по выполнению вех SpaceX по пилотируемой программе. Состояние на июль 2016.
Стрелками обозначены перенесенные вехи. 7(!!!) Вех перенесено на 2-3 месяца.И это статус ДО аварии 1 сентября.
С учетом аварии 1 сентября эти вехи сдвинутся еще на 5-6 месяцев. Т.е. в 2017 году выполнение всех Вех уже технически невозможно.
Мальчик Роман, LRV_75, тебя Quооndo покусал? Бедненький. Иди ко врачу, прививки сделай. Это заразно. Ещё домой эту дрянь притащишь, жену заразишь...

Всё это возможно, но всё это натягивание совы на глобус. Уже сейчас понятно, что причина аварии Фалькона не имеет никакой связи с Драконом.
Главное не наличие проблем, главное способность их решать.
У каждой ошибки есть Имя и Фамилия
 
Ну и Алекс_2 как обычно трепло

Цитата
Alex_II пишет: .
ну, в основном ты нес всякую херню.
Главное не наличие проблем, главное способность их решать.
У каждой ошибки есть Имя и Фамилия
 
Цитата
LRV_75 пишет:
У меня в таблице и есть 2019 год? И сейчас и 4 месяца назад ;)
Правильно, дурачок... А первый полет с экипажем - 2018 год...
И мы пошли за так, на четвертак, за ради бога
В обход и напролом и просто пылью по лучу...
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